Joe Rogan Isn’t A Podcast

Unpopular Thoughts about Video & Podcasting

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Video in podcasting has been a hot and controversial topic for quite a while now. Even though I’m not running a podcasting company anymore, I’m still passionate about the space and follow a lot of what’s going on.

I have some thoughts about video and I’m pretty sure a lot of people are going to disagree with me. However, I do have a fairly unique perspective because of my past experience.

I spent ten years producing television, everywhere from MuchMusic and YTV to CTV and specialty cable channels. Then I spent ten years working in a digital innovation lab disguised as a music service at Canada’s public broadcaster, CBC. We launched one of the first legal music podcasts in the world, the CBC Radio 3 podcast, in the spring of 2005 (!) and it was a huge hit (!). We started making more podcasts and soon had a podcast network, including a network aggregator Super Feed. We also produced an amazing video podcast called R3TV.

It was only after doing all this that I cofounded Pacific Content and went bonkers in audio-only podcasting.

Based on this background, I have thoughts about video and podcasts.

Copy and Paste Doesn’t Work

Every medium is different. It has been proven over and over again that copying content from one medium and pasting it onto another medium does not work. And yet that is what many podcasters are attempting to do with video.

There is so much emphasis on the need to be on YouTube because of the enormous amount of podcast consumption going on there, but not enough emphasis on what actually works on YouTube.

Audio’s Complaint About Video is Now Video’s Complaint About Audio

I remember in the early years of podcasting, there were several times when audio professionals complained heavily when they were asked to take the audio from a video recording and turn it into a podcast.

“We can’t just take audio from a video shoot! Video people don’t understand audio! They’ll be pointing to things and showing things that won’t translate into audio. And people won’t be talking for an audio audience. We need to make audio the priority if we want to have a good podcast.”

I might have even said that several times to video teams who had tons of footage and thought there was an easy podcast to be made from them 😜

Here’s the thing… many of us are doing the exact same thing to video. We’re taking our audio-first recordings and telling ourselves that we can just tack on video, put a check in our video strategy box, and keep doing things the same way.

A video strategy is not putting cheap wallpaper over high-quality audio. Video, like audio, is an extremely powerful medium and ignoring the core strengths of video (the visuals!) is a recipe for no viewers.

So let’s explore a few different solutions for how to kick ass in audio and video…

Multi-Platform Strategy Works (But It’s More Work)

A multi-platform content strategy is not a new concept in the media world, but it might be new for many podcasters. What is it?

Essentially, instead of defining yourself by a single platform like podcasting, you define yourself by your expertise or focus on your subject matter. Then, you evaluate each different platform and design phenomenal experiences about that subject matter on each one you want to participate in.

In a nutshell, a multi-platform strategy encourages creators to respect the strengths of each individual medium or platform. It encourages creators to design differently for each medium. It encourages creators to strongly consider and solve for the very different contexts in which audiences use each medium.

Pickleball + Podcasting

For example, let’s say you love pickleball and you think there is a great business in making pickleball content.

Someone who identifies as a podcaster (platform first) will design a pickleball podcast and then use TikTok, Instagram, newsletters, etc to promote the podcast. This is a single-platform strategy.

The multi-platform strategy is very different. You start with the idea of being the online home of pickleball fanatics (subject matter first). Then you might decide to make the world’s best pickleball podcast for people in audio-first contexts like commuting, or walking dogs, or cooking.

Then you might decide to make the world’s best pickleball show on YouTube and design it for a very different set of contexts, like when people are on couches or in bed and focused visually on their phones.

My new Pickleball video podcast set.

You might decide to create the world’s best pickleball newsletter, designed for another set of contexts, like people want to have in-depth information about the sport that is best absorbed and consumed via text.

The audio, video, and email strategies are distinct from each other and not copying and pasting the same material from one primary channel to all the others.

Is this more work? Is this more expensive? Absolutely. But this is what is required for meaningful success on each platform.

When Should You Consider a Separate Video Strategy?

Why should you potentially consider a multi-platform strategy? I think it makes sense if you have an existing audio-first podcast and it’s not video-friendly. There are all sorts of podcast formats that will never translate easily or effectively to video.

How could Hysterical, the Apple Podcasts Show of the Year for 2024, be a video podcast? It would have had to be conceived as a full-fledged video documentary from day one.

How could Shell Game, an amazing podcast about AI Voice Agents, be a video podcast? There are no visuals for the majority of the show—it’s primarily the host,

Evan Ratliff

, and a digital audio clone of himself talking to other people on the phone. Phenomenal as audio… not optimized for video.

If you have a format like this and if you feel that you really need to be on YouTube, you should consider an entirely separate video strategy.

Questions for Shifting from Audio-First to Multi-Platform

Here are some starter questions for thinking in an integrated, multi-platform way about video:

• What is the purpose of your show? (i.e. celebrate the magic of pickleball)

• Is there a subject matter or point of view about a subject matter that you are exclusively focused on? (i.e. pickleball)

• What is the outcome you’re trying to achieve? (build a passionate and loyal community of pickleball enthusiasts)

• How would you accomplish that if you could only do video and weren’t allowed to have an audio feed?

CBC Radio 3 and the R3TV Video Podcast

Back when I was at the digital music service, CBC Radio 3, there were a few reasons that we existed. First and foremost, our job was to champion new Canadian music. Next, our job was to attract younger audiences to the public broadcaster. And finally, our job was to experiment with new digital distribution channels and formats. (Kinda awesome, right???)

Our hit audio podcasts would have been pretty boring as video. It would have been a host in a recording studio talking about the music and then hitting the play button on a computer. 💤💤💤

That is how R3TV came to be born. The amazing

Jordan Kawchuk

was tasked with figuring out how to accomplish CBC Radio 3’s goals in video form. Jordan created a show that was video first, championed new Canadian music, and in a new distribution format (video podcast, complete with a video RSS feed!). It was surreal and wonderful and unlike anything that could exist in audio. There was an ongoing storyline about an old man named Scotty who was discovered after being trapped in the walls during a renovation of the CBC Radio 3 office. He became an intern working for one of the hosts, Grant Lawrence, and knew nothing about new Canadian music at all. (CBC has, for some reason, scrubbed R3TV from internet, but I found the first episode… )

There was video coverage of live music festivals, complete with on-site artist interviews. There were creative segments, like spending a day with an artist doing their day job (professional dog-walker!). And there was one music video per episode. We had annual music awards called the Bucky’s and we made some videos like this because the concept could never work in audio…

R3TV was a real gem because it was its own show. It was not expensive to produce because it had a creative genius making it all himself. With today’s technology, you can shoot a brilliant, high-quality video-only show with a decent phone, some DJI mics and gimbal, and a subscription to Descript or Adobe Premiere. The priceless part is finding someone who really knows video production and is a great storyteller.

TLDR: There has never been a better time in history to make affordable, high-quality original video.

Does every podcast need a separate video strategy like R3TV? No, it does not. But for many shows, a separate video strategy will be the most successful option if YouTube is important to your business. If I had the budget and resources, my first option would be a multi-platform strategy where each piece of content was designed specifically for one particular medium.

As you likely well know, though, there are some very prominent examples of shows that work very well on both video and audio, including the most famous podcast of them all… but I have a potentially unpopular point of view about Joe Rogan, too…

Joe Rogan is Not a Podcast

Joe Rogan is not an audio show pasted onto a video platform. It’s shot with a multi-camera set-up and on a set designed for video.

Joe Rogan is a video interview show that translates well to audio, not vice-versa.

Kill Tony is likely the most popular live podcast on the planet. It’s shot in Joe Rogan’s Comedy Mothership club in Austin… on a set with a multi-camera set-up and a live audience. It is essentially a live TV show that is on YouTube… that calls itself a podcast.

Bad Friends, Trash Tuesday, Call Her Daddy Diary of a CEO… the list of popular YouTube podcasts goes on and on, and they all have the same things in common: they are designed for video first. They are shot on sets or in a physical location chosen for video. There are multiple cameras. For shows that are live tapings, someone is directing the show and using a switcher or heavily editing it afterwards. Diary of a CEO’s epic opening sequences look and feel like a TV show.

I feel like the only reason that we call them podcasts and not talk shows is that there are giant podcast microphones in the shots. And sometimes, “podcasts” like Bobbi Althoff’s are a lot more like R3TV - no set, no big mics… nothing that says ‘audio’ or ‘podcast’ at all. It’s a video shoot, and visually, it’s much more interesting because… it plays to the strengths of video

Examples of podcasts designed for video.

Audio-first podcasters are too often just publishing Zoom, Riverside, or Descript recordings of remote interviews, and that’s it. Remote interviews are terrific for audio, but visually… they’re pretty boring. And that is why, IMHO, most (not all) Zoom recording shows have a very tough time finding an audience on YouTube.

Put it this way… If I offered you the chance to spend additional hours of your life watching someone else’s Zoom calls, does that sound compelling?

Or another way… Have you ever seen a hit television show that features two people in different locations talking on locked-off cameras for an hour? Me neither.

SNL’s Medcast sketch

More proof? Saturday Night Live recently had a terrific sketch about getting men to share more information with their doctors by making a doctor’s appointment feel more like a podcast. I love the sketch, but it also says something about how popular culture perceives podcasts. It’s a video set with podcast mics on it.

We are not in the era of watching SNL podcast sketches featuring people in NPR studios anymore. Medcast “feels like a podcast” today.

nbcsnl

A post shared by @nbcsnl

Kraft Dinner is even riffing on podcast culture (!) … and it includes a set designed for video and podcast mics. The Medcast and Kraft Dinner videos are now what a lot of people think of when they think “podcast.”

Show Development Needs New Considerations

If you want to make a single show that works on multiple platforms instead of creating distinct solutions for each platform, you need to design that way from day zero.

How do you design a show to be optimized for both video and audio? You need only look at what great video shows have in common.

Probably, like Joe Rogan and the other examples above, you need a branded, identifiable set designed for the needs of that particular show instead of a generic audio recording studio or remote recording solution.

You need multiple cameras. You need great mics set up so that they don’t obscure people’s faces and mouths. You need lighting. You need video professionals who can direct and/or edit a multi-camera show.

If you really want to knock it out of the park, you might even go bonkers and use a boom camera like most TV networks do. You could even do shows with multiple segments and multiple guests, the way traditional TV talk shows do. You almost certainly want the vast majority of your guests in your studio and not Zooming from their basement.

If YouTube is important for your show, what you probably shouldn’t do is design shows that make for a crappy video experience.

(Of course, the other very viable option is to double down on audio the way podcasters have for decades and make the best listening experience possible without compromising it for video.)

Quality is All That Matters

If you think it’s hard getting an audience for your podcast because there is too much competition… check out YouTube. YouTube has exponentially more content than the world of podcasting. So if you show up with a visually boring hour-long Zoom interview, you’re going to have a tough time getting anyone to watch it.

Audio listeners will not suffer very long through static-riddled audio with dropouts. And YouTube viewers will not suffer very long through numbingly boring and static videos. if you hold yourself and your show to high standards with all your audio, you need to hold yourself to the same high standards for video.

Audiences do not have to suffer through crap anymore. Ever. They have all the power to choose whatever they want and to ignore anything that is not worth their precious time and finite attention.

So our job is to create content that is truly worthy of time and attention, no matter what platform we are publishing on. Shortcuts don’t work anywhere anymore. We have to bring the goods and that means putting in the effort.

If you’re going to be on YouTube and you want to find any modicum of success, you should make the best damn video show you possibly can.

What About Budget?

I know this is harsh, but if you don’t have the budget to do any of these options, maybe you shouldn’t do video. Why make something sub-par and put it out in public? Why spend any time and effort on something that isn’t worthy of attention?

The budget issue is real, but it’s not something you can ignore or wish away. If you want to be like Joe Rogan and make great video, build sets, have lighting, etc, it is going to cost a lot more money than a remote recording.

As I mentioned above, finding a talented video storyteller and using phones, DJI mics, and Descript is much more reasonable than building a permanent set… apart from the cost of a talented video storyteller 😜

That is the price to be paid if you are in the attention business. You have to be great or you will be ignored.

If you can’t be great, maybe you shouldn’t participate.

Takeaways

• Why do you want to have video for your podcast? What will video success look like for you?

• How will you measure success for a video strategy?

• Will average, mediocre video quality get you the results you are looking for?

• How could you rethink your show development process to include both audio and video from day zero?

• How will you decide whether you take more of a Joe Rogan approach (a video show with a set that is also optimized for audio) or a multi-platform approach like CBC Radio 3?

• Can you deliver the same standard of quality required the earn the attention of discerning audiences on every platform you publish on? If not, why not? And what are the implications?

• Would you be better off spending your time making your audio even better and more amazing than splitting focus and budget and putting out mediocre video that likely won’t perform?

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Earn It Updates

NYU’s Business of Podcasting Class!

In a lovely coincidence, podcast strategy guru Steven Goldstein emailed me a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned that I was coming to New York and he magically had an open guest lecture spot in his NYU course, the Business of Podcasting. It was such a treat getting to talk with all these smart and keen podcasting students and I learned a lot about how they consume podcasts (SPOILER: VIDEO. Not a coincidence I wrote this newsletter after being at the NYU course…)

Porchlight’s Business Book of the Year Prize

It was a real thrill to attend the Porchlight Business Book of the Year awards in New York last week, where Earn It was a nominee in the Marketing and Communications category. Congratulations to Terry Szuplat, former Obama speechwriter, for his winning book, Say It Well, as well as all the winners in the other categories. And a huge thank you to the amazing team at Porchlight Books for putting on such a stellar evening and for championing so many wonderful books.

Here is a lovely video featuring the authors whose books were nominated, talking about why they believe in books. (You can see my ridiculous attempt at a fake blooper at the very end…)

Podcasts!

Thank you to Mark Drager for having me on the How to Sell More podcast. It’s episode 99 (the Gretzky episode!) and I think we unknowingly tried to not focus on where the marketing puck has been, but more on where it’s going to be.

Thanks also to Ozeal Debastoshttps://www.linkedin.com/in/ozeal/ for a great time talk about content for creators on the Creator Factor podcast. I love talking about creator business models and strategy and I love Ozeal’s passion and energy!

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What’s Earned My Attention Recently

• Annalise Nielsen from Pacific Content and Lower Street is one of my favourite podcast strategy thinkers, and I really enjoyed her thoughts on video podcasting data.

• AI Slop from the other Prof G, Steven Goldstein. Not only is Steven the Prof at NYU’s podcasting course, but he’s a great audio strategist. (Doesn’t AI Slop sound appealing? 😜)

• Jay Acunzo has opened up another session of his Signature Speech speaking bootcamp. Jay recently helped me with a keynote and he kinda blew me away with the depth of his expertise and his real-time insights. If you’re a speaker looking to step up your game, check out Jay and his consulting.

• I had a great ‘non-Earn It’ chat with Peter Reek about mid-life career transitions for his wonderful new publication, InHabit. For me and a lot of other people in my age bracket, all the issues in InHabit are top of mind and I’m really enjoying it a lot.

• Unlike THIS newsletter, here is something short and powerful that I was fortunate enough to help out with. The Life Is Short newsletter is a short bi-weekly newsletter with powerful insights about life. What makes it unique and powerful is who it’s from. Canuck Place is a children’s hospice in Vancouver and they deal with some of the most tragic and heartwrenching experiences you can imagine. This generous newsletter shares life insights for all of us—insights that can only come from those who have lived experience working in a children’s hospice.

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Thanks for reading this video-heavy edition of the newsletter. Please let me know if you have any addition strategies or approaches that have worked for you with video, or if you have examples of unusual video successes.

(If you want to talk more about video podcasting or multi-platform content strategy, just reply back to this email.)

Steve

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